• BEHIND THE SCENES: Why Q2 Scared The 💩 Out Of Me

    This is a transcript from episode 67 of the OMGrowth podcast

    I’m Lanie Lamarre and I’ve never had a scarier quarter than what Q2 2022 was for me. Today, I’m going through some of my “lessons learned”, key take-aways and yes, my OMGrowth moments, in the hopes that sharing these will help you tap into them for yourself as well.

    I want to start off by admitting that I only kinda planned my Q2. This is typical for me because I go into super-mega-ultra in-depth planning mode for Q1 and Q3, but then my Q2 and Q4 tend to lean on its previous quarter’s planning so that I kind of just outline what I’m looking to accomplish.

    I’m going to blame that lack of thoroughness on why I took so dang much on but also, everything I did in Q2 had been on the horizon during my Q1 planning. Plus, I never felt burn-out or drained but it really did make my boundaries clear for Q3 planning so, I don’t see any what happened, what I did or how I spent my time as a bad thing at all.

    But scary? Oh, definitely.


    I kicked off Q3 talking about why I uninstalled Google Analytics (GA) from my website and I have been a major cheerleader for the platform over the year as THE option for knowing your website numbers so heck yeah, it was scary to publish that episode.

    I had prepared for this in Q1 in more ways than one:

    • I installed privacy-compliant analytics software on my site in January;
    • I uninstalled GA in February;
    • February was also when I started removing all of the GA-related products I had on my site; and
    • I recorded and scheduled that podcast episode in March.

    The week that episode was going out was the first time in years that I had felt NERVOUS about something I was publishing.

    That thing they say about doing things that make you nervous? Yeah, there’s definitely something to that because episode 53 about uninstalling GA and episode 54 about analytics options I recommend instead are definitely my highest downloaded podcast episodes and they’re about double the amount of my other episodes.

    Did that translate to more podcast subscribers? You can’t actually see how many people are subscribed to your podcast, and I’ll need to see a longer data collection period to identify whether I retained those listeners but at this point, it looks like I’ve had a marginal increase in long-term listenership and I’ve had a significant increase in brand awareness.

    If you’ve listened to me for any period of time or read any of my books, you’ve heard me say this many times before, but…

    The most useful thing you can do with your data is to interact with it and ask it questions. A good place to start? “What are these numbers telling me to do more of and what is it telling me to do less of?”

    In this case, the numbers seem to be telling me that solopreneurs and online business owners want to be better informed about the platforms they’re using as well as what their options are.

    I thought maybe this meant listeners wanted to hear more about their legal obligations but then my episode on the laws that govern email marketing didn’t do especially well. In fact, that episode had my lowest downloads all quarter.

    So I have you, my dear listener, living in this very interesting and specific Venn diagram where it seems like you want resources to better and more easily understand the Terms and Conditions you’ve agreed to, and yet you’re not super-stoked about listening to the legal implications that govern you.

    Fair enough, and please feel free to email me or to DM me to let me know if you think I’m hitting the nail on the head here or totally missing it.

    But based on those insights, I have it on my new Q3 To Do List to integrate a new series on the podcast called “I agreed to WHAT?…” where I break down the Privacy Policies and Terms and Conditions for some of the most popular business tools we all use as online entrepreneurs, and that we may not realize or understand what happens with the data we’re collecting, entering and using on those platforms.


    I also started putting my podcast episodes on YouTube in Q2. It’s literally a production to do this and so time-intensive BUT! it also makes social media in general easier to manage and be consistent about because I just take a few snippets from the produced episodes to repurpose.

    So at this point, it feels worth it and I’ll be looking at ways to more efficiently outsource some parts of this. For now, it still feels fun and it makes me not worry about things that keep us all up at night like “social media visibility” so wins across the board for this one.

    I also started showing up on TikTok. The way I decided to approach TikTok felt very sustainable to me because I read a lot of news on digital marketing and I keep informed on changes in the online business world anyways. The idea of just sharing those stories on TikTok felt like an extension of something I already did so that was fine and I do enjoy showing up in this way.

    However, I was not as consistent as I would like to be and there are a few reasons for that.


    The biggest one is because I wrote, published and marketed 2 books in Q2. No biggie, right? I learned all I could about self-publishing, dealt with all that comes with adapting to a new learning curve for the first one, I explored Amazon ads in-between books, parlayed all I did learn into making that second book a best-seller – it was a LOT!

    Who writes, publishes and promotes 2 books as a first-time author in 3 months? What was I thinking? I still don’t know but I do know that it’s been a great experience, there will be more books to come including planning tools and paperback editions but I think I did more than enough in the time I had in Q2. Like, way more. Like, a goofy amount more.


    Especially when you consider that I had a little trip planned in the midst of all this. I was in New Orleans the February before the pandemic started because I typically spend any spare moment I have there, but I hadn’t been back since then so it was an understatement to say it was great to spend time with friends and loved ones for the first time in 2 years.

    Did I bring work to do on this trip? You bet I did. Did I do any of it? I didn’t crack it open until I was in a queue of return flight delays, so I actually didn’t mind the flight issues for a change.

    I was very anxious going into this trip. I was very isolated over these last 2 years and this took a toll on my mental health. I’m obviously not a mental health specialist but I’m going say that I’ve benefit exponentially from doing the things that used to be “normal”, even if they felt scary to do at first. Everyone has to do what’s right for them but sometimes doing the scary thing IS the right thing to do, and personally, I have no other way of explaining it than to say that I feel “fixed”.

    These last few years, I’ve also developed a whole new sympathy for anyone who feels like they “just can’t”. Whether that’s taking on more work, or even a baseline like getting out of bed, I have a better and more personal understanding of what that means now. It’s a real thing and it’s a hard thing and doing the thing can be really effing hard and whether it felt easy or hard to do, you have to make room for acknowledging yourself and all that you do. It is so, so, so important!

    So hey! make that an action item and a priority today and feel free to pause this episode RIGHT NOW to do this, but you don’t just have a To Do list, boss. You have a DONE list and if you haven’t been keeping tabs on all that you do and you’ve done, create one right now of all the things you’ve done in the last quarter. You’ve done A LOT, even if most of what you did was take care of yourself – that’s a lot! – and please take a time-out from “the next thing” to just BE with all that you’ve done. Spend some time with it.

    When I looked back on all that I’ve done in Q2 – including and especially the big scary things! – it felt easy for me to make decisions about where I was going next. For instance, that podcast series on “I Agreed to WHAT?….” feels important and relevant, but also time-consuming to research so I’m giving myself some space in Q3 to get that done.

    I also want to live in the moment and effing ENJOY summer music festivals – do you KNOW how long I’ve waited for this Rage Against The Machine tour? I’ve had these tickets in my possession for almost 3 years now, and I’ve been waiting to do it again since I last saw them at Lollapalooza in 2008. I don’t want to just look forward to things anymore, because I want to enjoy them as they’re happening.

    My nerdy little heart wants to enjoy putting that podcast series together, I want to enjoy the process of writing the next book, I want to enjoy the time I’m spending on social media.

    And to do all of that, we’re going to take a few weeks off from the podcast and come back with Season 3 of the OMGrowth, which will give me more space to spend time curating that habit I want to flex for delivering the digital marketing goods over on TikTok so if you’re worried about missing me, follow me @omgrowthpod because I’ll still be showing up, just not in your earholes exclusively.

    If you have suggestions, if you have comments, feel free to slip into those DMs.

    If you think my podcasts are the bee’s knees, I love when you tell me this in my DMs and my inbox but nobody else sees those, while reviews are top shelf value for someone like me who publishes a podcast and publishes books. If I being any kind value, I value a gold-star review more than ANYthing else you can offer to me, ok? So please, hit SEND on those reviews.

    Have a great summer. Make some memories, it has been too long since we’ve had the opportunity to make enough of them and always, always remember – you’re my favorite – talk soon, baiiiieee!!!


  • LIZ WILCOX Is Proof Of How Low Ticket Can Be High Value and Hella-Profitable

    This is a transcript of episode 64 of the OMGrowth podcast

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    I’m Lanie Lamarre and today’s episode goes long because I have a guest who has way too many valuable things to say about her numbers, how she defines what “good numbers” are for her, and how she markets a low-ticket membership into being all-kinds-of-profitable, not to mention a totally personally gratifying business model. I swear I tried to edit this one down to our usual 10-15 minute format but everytime I was about to cut something out, it felt like I was omitting something important about how Liz Wilcox is hella data-driven in the least complicated way so without further ado…

    Go behind-the-scenes and check out Liz’s membership for just $9

    Lanie Lamarre (00:00):
    Liz Wilcox is our guest today and she speaks quite openly about her rates, her, uh, her growth, her numbers. And I couldn’t really put it all together, how she could offer such a low cost, low ticket membership and be profitable to the extent she has. So I emailed Liz and I said,
    Liz, listen, I’m gonna join your membership. And it’s not necessarily because I want to take on a membership. I just really wanna see how you’re delivering this so that you can be self lip and profitable. And what value are you offering? How are you doing all of this?
    And she’s like, Oh yeah, cool beans. Join. And, um, I think it was like a year ago. I’m still a member , I’m not creeping anymore. I’m just enjoying the content. So, um, that just goes to show the sort of value that you’re delivering in that membership. But tell us more about what you offer, how you offer it, because it is mind blowing the value that you’re able to deliver.

    Liz Wilcox (00:58):
    Uh, thank you so much. I could have said it better myself. uh, if you’re just being introduced to Liz Wilco, I, I hold nothing back. Um, I like to think it’s a good example for especially, uh, women to just own their stuff. The membership. Yeah. So it’s called email marketing membership, hashtag SEO, right. Um, and it’s $9 a month. So I’ll be the first to say it, it is wicked cheap, but it is actually valuable. So I started it in February of 2021 and it was just this way, the way I was thinking of structuring it at the time, of course, you know, goals always change, uh, you know, your vision gets bigger, but at the time I was doing copywriting services and I was just looking to replace some of that income. I knew I didn’t wanna be a copywriter forever. You know, I was a service provider and I always said, what I provide you is amazing my service, eh, not so much.

    Liz Wilcox (01:57):
    Cause I didn’t, you know, I love serving in different capacities. I love groups. That’s another reason why a membership model makes sense for me. And then I was also looking at my numbers. Lenny would be so proud. My email list was growing as about, I think, 800 people at the time. And I just realized there was this big disconnect between my services and the people that were getting on my list, meaning, you know, not, everyone’s gonna be able to afford my services. You know, this business model with one-on-one client work. It’s not what I wanna be doing. It’s not the sustainable model that I want. And there’s also Laney. And I, I think before we hit record, we were talking about, you know, I tend to love like big numbers, like out of this world data. I refuse to accept like the average one to 3% stuff.

    Liz Wilcox (02:42):
    And so I was looking at the percentage of customers in my overall list. And at the time I can’t remember what it was. It was like 10 or 20% for me. That’s not enough if I’m in business, I’m in business to sell you something, not in a nasty way, but like I’ve worked really hard to figure it out what it is you want. So why aren’t you buying? You know, I was looking at how my trip wire is converting. You know, at the time it was like 5%. I was like, what the heck? This thing is genius. And in my head I thought, you know, it’s only $22, that’s so cheap. And then I took it all the way back to when I first started my business. And I thought, well, at the time I didn’t have $22 to spend, like I had to spend that on my WordPress every month or my convert kit.

    Liz Wilcox (03:25):
    Right. And so I thought, what is a number that I can get the maximum amount of customers in form? Because I know if I can sell somebody at $9 or, you know, at X dollars, right. I didn’t have the $9 yet, but if I can sell them at $1, I can sell them for any dollar. Right. The best customer is a repeat customer. I took that to heart. And so I thought, okay, something under 10 bucks is gonna get the maximum amount of customers, which is my number one metric. I just did a workshop on that. And I said, you know, that’s all I care about is the percentage of customers, because I know I’m gonna come up with other ideas and I’m gonna be able to sell them again. And I thought it’s gotta be under 10 bucks because for most people, almost everyone, that’s gonna be a no brainer or it’s at least going to be like, they might have to think about it, but it’s not a scary number where there, okay, Liz, I’ll give you 30 days, you know, I’ll try this out.

    Liz Wilcox (04:18):
    Right. And so for me, that was again, looking at my numbers and thinking of what is my number one metric, why I came up with the $9 and why I came up with it for a membership model, because I thought if I can just slowly replace this client income, you know, slowly build the membership. It doesn’t have to happen all at once. You know, I accepted that slow growth is still growth. Then, you know, one day I’ll be able to retire my services and I can do this thing. And it was also about it’s a newsletter template membership. So that was something I was already creating for clients, writing newsletters for them. This is my third business. I had thousands of newsletters that I’ve written over the years. So it’s not like I would ever not have an idea, right. Like I’m rambling right now.

    Liz Wilcox (05:02):
    I never, I never run out of words. so for me it, it was, you know, all of those things wrapped into one. And then I got a hundred members in the first 30 days. I thought, if I can validate this, you know, 800 folks on my list, if I can get a hundred of them, you know, I can’t remember that exact percentage, but it was enough to make me feel good. And that would be 900 bucks a month, which was about half of my day rate at the time. And I thought, you know, if I can slowly think of it as half a day rate, half a day rate, replacing that for 30 days, like, wow, I’d, you know, I’d have a million dollar business for, you know, an hour or less worth of work a week. And so that really got me fired up. I got those hundred folks in, finished up some client work, and I just started going really, really hard in the membership in a year and a half time. I have well, less than a year and a half time. I have over 1500 members in 15 months. Oh

    Lanie Lamarre (05:55):
    My gosh. I like, I’m listening to you. And I have so many questions. I’m like, oh, stop yourself from interrupting her. Do you still have the trip wire in place? I do. Okay. So you have a trip wire and the membership.

    Liz Wilcox (06:06):
    Yeah. So I have, I have several pro I have lots of products. Like, like I said, I never come. I never not have an idea. Mm-hmm . And so I have the trip wire and that converts, I think right now at about 7%. And then I’ve got an upsell for that. And that seems to be working well, I think in two different places I’m testing and this is, you know, data I need really need to look at now that my leads are coming in steadily. I have an upsell to another product for half off. So altogether it’s like a $40 or an upsell to add the membership. And that’s like $20. I can’t, I don’t know which one’s converting better right now. I think it’s actually the more expensive one without the membership, which is interesting. But you think, oh, well it’s at the beginning stages. They might not be ready to sign up for a membership no matter what the cost is yet.

    Lanie Lamarre (06:52):
    Right. Right. I love what you said too about, I took it back to when I was starting, what is the no brainer price, as opposed to the way I feel like it’s promoted a lot right now, especially when you’re building a membership, when you’re building a group program or something like that, the goal is to make it as bottom line friendly as possible, always focusing on how much money are you getting, as opposed to thinking of where are my ideal clients at this point? And where was I at that point? What would I have been willing to easily invest as opposed to having to sit back and think about it?

    Liz Wilcox (07:24):
    Yeah. I love that. You said, you know, my bottom line, cuz obviously I support two households and one is a thousand miles away. Mm-hmm and I’m a single mom. So my bottom line is very important to me as well, but I wanna be in business for a long time. I’m not here to just make quick cash. Like I have made that transition from how to make money online, to how to have a real business. Right. Which there, there is a distinction there. I think for me because my bottom line is so important. I don’t have money to spend on ads. Going back to your original question about like how the heck is this actually profitable? I have kept my business incredibly lean. The membership itself was on Google drive, which I was already paying for until I hit a thousand members. It was, it was 13 months. So it just got off of Google drive. I just spent, you know, money to get it onto my actual website to be an actual membership site.

    Lanie Lamarre (08:19):

    Liz Wilcox (08:20):
    But I had over a thousand, you know, I had over a thousand members until I spent that money. I think I spent like $500 to get someone to build the bones. And so I’m all about keeping things lean. You know, I had an assistant very on and off maybe paying, you know, a couple hundred dollars a month up until, uh, you know, mid-March of 20, 22. So again like 13 months, it wasn’t until I really felt like this is an established product. You know, I’ve got a thousand people in here. Sure. You know, of course there’s a churn rate, but it’s obvious, you know, I’m gaining momentum on this. You know, I wasn’t investing in a VA, like everyone tells, oh, you deserve to have quality time with which is true. And I believe, but at the end of the day, I wanna be in business for a long time. So I need to save a lot of money, save a lot of cash in case something happens and I’m not running ads. I’ve never run ads again. I never had the privilege of having money to run ads. And so I’ve spent a lot of time coming on podcasts like this talking, I think last year I did over 50 podcast interviews and over 20 like private trainings or speaking engagements, do

    Lanie Lamarre (09:24):
    You have great affiliate relationships?

    Liz Wilcox (09:26):
    Yes. And I have a lot at this point I just looked this morning. I have over 430 affiliates. I think about 120 are making sales actively. But again, it was all about how do I keep my bottom line? My bottom line? Yes, I need money and I need, and I need quite a bit, you know, I, I have two rents, two utility bills, like the first of the month is not fun for list woke up, uh, woke um, now, now, um, bone dogs in harmony is in the background. Wake up, wake up, wake up. Did

    Lanie Lamarre (10:00):
    You have a little Phil Collins? Uh, version of it with the video?

    Liz Wilcox (10:03):
    Oh yeah. Forgot about that. Anyway. Uh, we’re talking, we’re talking about, uh, business here. you dunno me. I’m very like music is very much ingrained in my business. I have in sync on the, in the background. Um, yeah. Anyway, so the bottom line is very important, but for me, because I know I need as much cash as possible. I’ve looked for ways that maybe we’ a little more work building, real relationships, getting, you know, as many affiliates as possible, reaching out, trying to get on podcasts, putting myself out there, building a signature talk that I can give over and over, but it’s always been like looking 1, 2, 3, 10 years into the future. And I know this is what you need to create a business. And so now I’m seeing all that work pay off. And I know like the growth is just exponential at this point. It’s crazy.

    Lanie Lamarre (10:57):
    Yeah. You get the services going, get the experience and the relationships and the sort of street cred, if you will, or the online street cred, the internet cred, which by the way, getting a hundred people to buy a product when your list is 800 people, those are amazing conversion rates. That’s kind of unheard of. So kudos to you for doing that. That means you’re really nurturing your list in a way that is completely out of this world. And that’s what you’re teaching in the membership. So it’s very much a practice which you preach, but you do have a numbers game in front of you in order to grow and being able to pull back on the services and pull forward in a slow sort of sustainable way, growing with your membership size. Um, as opposed to being like, okay, I’m going to build a group program overnight, that’s going to make a million dollars. Um, I’m gonna invest all this money. I’m gonna have this huge team. Uh, that’s not at all what you did. And yet you’re still lining yourself up for, in the long term being right alongside those same people, maybe ahead, cuz you don’t have all the overhead. Right.

    Liz Wilcox (11:56):
    I don’t have a lot of overhead. I mean, even the site, you know, I didn’t go with Kajabi or teachable or anything cuz they charge fees. Right. And so I built it on my own web, well, cherry ward built it on my own website. She helped me build out the bones and she was actually a member. A lot of the things, uh, that I pay for are members. And that again, like of course that’s just a Goodwill type of thing, but you know, from a strategic point, you know, if I’m paying them, they’re gonna pay me. Right. And so it’s just this, how can I help my community and help myself keep my overhead low? I’m all about keeping things very lean. I sing. My bookkeeper is my best friend. I swear she’s changed my whole life. And it was, there was a moment in December of 2020.

    Liz Wilcox (12:45):
    I just had my first full year of copywriting. And at the time we were doing the profit first model of, you know, give myself 50% and you know, the rest goes to whatever and you know, some months I was making a lot of money, you know, over five figures, you know, other months it was kind of famine, right. Fe famine type of thing. Yeah. But I was spending anything. She was giving me right in my personal bank account. I was like, oh I got it. I’m rich. I’m doing it. Look mom, you know? Um, yeah, I’m gonna pay for dinner. Uh, but I could have been, you know, maybe investing in some stocks or something. And so I told her, I said, this is how much money I need and I’ll be at full disclosure. I was like, I need $3,400 a month. Mm-hmm .

    Liz Wilcox (13:27):
    And that was like to the penny, you know, I grew up poor. I have a lot of financial insecurity. Like that’s what you gotta know about me, what I need the bare minimum to survive. Like please hide the rest of, from me. Like on your end you can continue to do the 50%. I said, but you know, just paying me that $1,700 every two weeks, like just hide the rest from me. I don’t wanna do copywriting forever. I knew I wanted a business that just sold products. Right. I came from the blogging world. I knew that’s what I like. And so now, and she, again, numbers, girl, right? She’s like right now some months you don’t make that much. I was like, I’m gonna do it. Just let’s just do this. And I was able to actually save an entire year’s worth of salary, doing that, hiding that money from myself and hiding it from the business.

    Liz Wilcox (14:15):
    You know, it was like, I never really logged in, you know, other than I had a good sale. And I was like, Ooh, I just wanna see that number. She wasn’t ever telling me how much exactly was left over. We would meet once a month. And she said, oh yeah, you know, you’re building, you’re building. And it was around October that I thought, okay, am I close to a year? I was only like halfway. So I was paying myself about $38,000 a year. You know, I had less than 20 saved. And I was like, okay, what can I do? What can I do? And that’s when I came up with the model of like someone paying for a year of the membership. So I could reduce that churn rate and have guaranteed cash in the bank for my business and myself and that sold like crazy and continues to sell like crazy.

    Lanie Lamarre (15:00):
    So you have this recurring income with your membership, people who pay monthly, but you still have a launch model built into your processes by way of having sort of an annual sale. Maybe it’s a semi-annual.

    Liz Wilcox (15:14):
    Yeah. Cuz I love launching. I’m one of those. not everybody does, but I, if you don’t know me again, like just Google me. You’ll see. You’ll be like, oh yeah, that’s the launch girl. that’s the launch girl like right now I’m wearing like a rainbow, like 1970 vintage sweater with like a rainbow bandana. Like I love, I love getting to know people. I obviously love talking and I love launching because it’s just exciting. Especially for a kid that thought she was gonna have to work two jobs, the rest of her life, like launching. And I’m just gonna say like making that cash and knowing that I’m creating something, especially with the membership, knowing that I created something that actually helps people for a price that doesn’t feel shitty for anybody like that. Freaking awesome. I love selling it. It’s like, yes, let’s do this thing.

    Liz Wilcox (16:04):
    Yeah. The yearly I’m actually doing it. I do it twice a year now. And then I’m having a Midsummer flash sale. It’s basically you buy a year of the membership nine times 12, 108 bucks. And I give you all my other products for free kind of like Costco, right? You get in for 60 bucks and you basically buy everything at cost. Right? Of course they have physical products. And so they can’t just give you everything, but they sell it basically at cost and they actually lose money on their hot dogs. When I heard that, that actually gave me the idea for my membership, uh, model, when I heard they were losing money on a lot of their products. But the majority of their profit was the membership itself. Like that fee. I thought, well, okay, my products are digital. If they’re willing to lose money on the back end to get all those front end, you know, membership sales and they’re a giant international company, I was like, what the heck am I doing? You know? Right. I could do that too. There are millions of people that are entrepreneurs or you know, wanna start businesses. This is a huge pond that I feel like no one is trying to cast this big of a net. I’ll be the one, I’ll be the one I’ll do it.

    Lanie Lamarre (17:16):
    But you also have the advantage where it’s, you know, your numbers. I don’t wanna call it an advantage. You put the work into knowing your numbers where you know, what your churn rate is. So, you know, when people are sort of going to get off of the membership model, so there’s a lot more incentive to be able to offer the, Hey, why don’t you just join us for the year when somebody might have actually three months down the line might have actually unsubscribed from your group program, you’re actually able to get them to commit further

    Liz Wilcox (17:43):
    100% and that great point Laney. So what she’s saying about the churn rate again, coming from just full disclosure, that financial insecurity and thinking, you know, I’m always thinking, how am I getting the rent pay this month? It used to be I’m safe this week. I’m safe this week. Like in college, one time my roommate threw away a pizza because it was four days old and I had like two slices left. She said, oh, that was old. And I literally started crying. I was like, that’s all the food I have to eat for the next five days. And now it’s gone. Like, that’s the kind of insecurity I’m coming from. So right. So these are strategies, you know, at the end of the day, like I, you know, I want more sales, but it’s just also coming from, what am I trying to say? Now? I’m kind of rambling, but

    Lanie Lamarre (18:24):
    No, no. You’re talking about your client lifetime value.

    Liz Wilcox (18:27):
    Yeah. You, you can build a business where you belong. That makes you feel safe, a model that makes you feel really good and delights you to sell it and also makes you feel safe and secure. Right. Launching might. It might not be that model that might feel scary to you or membership, you know, that might feel like, oh, I don’t wanna create content all the time, stuff like that. So I just encourage you to really look within and create a model that makes sense for you

    Lanie Lamarre (18:53):
    And also to like go with something that you’re comfortable with from where you are. Because once you start to know your numbers with your churn rate, with your client, lifetime value, being able to sort of up that for yourself while people are still seeing your product as valuable and then continuing to get that value from people like I’m a member and I’m for sure going to be getting in on the annual because it’s like, why am I, why am I paying monthly when I can just get in on the annual,

    Liz Wilcox (19:18):
    Hey, y’all just heard it. I just made a stamp tomato. Sam was the add to Ching whoever’s added

    Lanie Lamarre (19:27):

    Liz Wilcox (19:28):
    Yeah. And so with the turn rate, I noticed people that were in my universe stayed five or six months, or they just were not dropping off at all. They were like all, all in with email. And then I noticed with affiliates, people were staying about three or four months. So if they came in through Laney or something, they, you know, they’d stay a few months and then, you know, forget about it. Right. And so, yeah, I thought like, how the heck do I just nip that in the bud? Right? Like, I’ve gotta get rid of that. I, I need this cash flow. And I believe like I’m really gonna help them create a real business. And so that’s, you know, came up with a yearly and it went off really well. I said, okay, if I could sell a hundred on black Friday, you know, that’s like 10 or $12,000 or something.

    Liz Wilcox (20:14):
    And like, whoa, wouldn’t that be like, just freaking crazy. And so I sent out an email that said, I’m only gonna sell a hundred of these. And I, I gave, you know, spiel and I sold out within two hours. And that’s when I knew again, it’s, everything’s a beta, right? Everything’s a test. That’s when I knew I was like, oh snap, this is gonna be the launch thing. This is the thing that’s gonna right. Get me the cash flow I need, you know, when I need it. Right. Cause you can, I love with the membership model, you can do these kind of flash sales every so often get a lump of cash. For me, it was about retiring my services and I felt, I felt so safe in that moment of, okay, now I’ve just secured, you know, a hundred people for a year. I can take that $12,000 and pay for my mastermind for an entire next year or whatever it is.

    Liz Wilcox (21:04):
    Right. That was like in my brain, you know, that Bill’s checked off for a year. Then I ran it again in a few weeks cuz everyone was pissed that they missed the sale. Everyone was like, whoa lady. So then I’m like a Saturday afternoon. And so I ran it again. Actually I ran the numbers for you. So I had 233 people that said like, yes, I’d be interested in this sale. Again. I made like a mini quick wait list. Like, Hey, I’m gonna open this again in the next few weeks. You know, I said, I was only gonna sell a hundred. I’m not gonna open it again right away. Let me figure out what worked, what didn’t I had 231 people on the wait list and on that wait list, I had 160 of them buy. Wow. So that’s like a 69% conversion rate I

    Lanie Lamarre (21:44):
    Think. Yeah.

    Liz Wilcox (21:45):
    so that’s really good. And then I had, I also, I opened it up to affiliates to sell and so I made an additional 70 sales from affiliates and they got 20% of that. So about 20 bucks, 21 bucks. So in total I sold 233 in December. So I more than doubled that hundred that I had sold. And I don’t know about you, but that was the first time in my life I’d ever made that much money at once. It took me an entire Q1 of 2021. I made that exact amount that I had I made in those three days.

    Lanie Lamarre (22:17):
    Wow. Yeah.

    Liz Wilcox (22:18):
    So just consistent action. You know, the power of the email list, the power of building relationships, finding that offer, that feels good to you

    Lanie Lamarre (22:26):
    And the power of providing value.

    Liz Wilcox (22:29):
    Yeah. Oh yeah. And the membership is awesome. I, it really is valuable.

    Lanie Lamarre (22:33):
    right. Let’s talk about the membership because you have monthly Q and a calls where you’re actually on the call. Yeah. You Liz Wilco. I can ask any question. I want, um, you have templates with videos that go with

    Liz Wilcox (22:46):
    Them. Yeah. Yeah. so I love doing the Q and a, I know a lot of people, even when I built the membership, I was like, oh, should I put live Q and a? And I was like, yeah, I’m just gonna put it so I can get these a hundred people. Maybe I’ll maybe I’ll take it off if it’s too much work. But the Q and a is literally my favorite thing. I think one time I stayed for like two and a half hours. I love email. And if you’re gonna come at me with an email question, like I’m, I’m gonna be so no one in my real life, like wants to talk about email marketing. So if you’re gonna come at me with a

    Lanie Lamarre (23:17):
    Question, change these with numbers.

    Liz Wilcox (23:19):
    Yeah. Amen. Amen. You get it, you get it. And so like, I really wanna serve people when I realized I could make money with email. I was like, oh my gosh, guys, these rich folks have been lying to us. Like it’s time to grab the bag. like, let’s go, let me teach you what I did. And so that it’s that fervor behind it as well. And so even if it’s one person on the call or two people, if I see that spark in them, they’re like, yeah, Liz, I believe you. I believe this can work for me too. Like, I’m gonna give it my all. And given that I can do this for the max amount of people for such an incredible price, it feels so good to me to serve. And nowadays pretty much my membership is all that I do. Right. Like I love helping a lot of people. I don’t like the one on one client work as much. So it makes sense for me. Yeah. And then the templates, you know, and they’re actual templates, these are not copywriter swipes of, you know, emails that I wrote and you just take and I pray for you. Um, you know, you know what, I, we all know what I’m talking about.

    Lanie Lamarre (24:26):
    Totally completely.

    Liz Wilcox (24:27):
    Um, I actually write templates, like think of it like Madlibs, right? Like fill in the blank here. And I give you a video walkthrough. It’s usually three to five minutes where I’m actually explaining why the heck you would want to write an email like this. And depending on your personality, your business, your tone and your comfortability, I take all of those into consideration and I walk you through the template. And then I do give you swipes like a plus examples of what it would look like. So I think last week I wrote it from the perspective of a pediatrician, right. And then the second one, I wrote it from the perspective of like a photographer and these are actual members in the group. right. So if you email me, you’re probably gonna be top of mind. So you’re probably gonna be in the next swipe.

    Liz Wilcox (25:09):
    so, I mean, there’s just so many people and I’m also learning that I’m a bit of a contrarian. So if someone tells me like, oh, you can’t do that. You have to niche down. You’ve gotta serve only bloggers. You know, there’s no way this can work for everybody. I’m thinking of ways. Like, you know, I’m like Einstein with the chalkboard in the background with the math equations. Like how can we make this work? How can we make this work? Like, how can I don’t understand, this is me on my soapbox now. Like how can you spout advice about being inclusive and then say you can’t be for everybody. And of course I know not everyone is for Liz Wilcox. If you’re in the, to the Backstreet boys really hard, you’re probably not gonna like me. Um, but at the end of the day, like I’m really trying to create content. That makes sense for the maximum amount of people. Yeah. I, I love the membership. I’d love for anyone to join that thinks like, yeah. You know, I believe everybody, when they say email marketing is really lucrative, like, come in, let me show you.

    Lanie Lamarre (26:07):
    Absolutely. We’ll have a link in the show notes to come join both myself and Liz because I am a very proud member. And like I said, you let it slip that there is going to be an annual SI coming up. So I, this is really the approach I recommend with your product specifically the little $9 investment, get in, see what it is. And if you’re dazzled, not if, when, when you’re dazzled, then you can go in and get the annual because it really makes all the sense in the world. Uh, you don’t offer being able to buy the subscription for the year because I, we talked about this where I’m like, it just makes more sense to buy it for the year. And you’re like, well, you’re gonna have to wait. Like everybody else,

    Liz Wilcox (26:45):
    You have to wait. Yeah. I was like, well, I there’s no like back door, VIP pass.

    Lanie Lamarre (26:50):
    Yeah. You have to wait. so I’ve been waiting and it’s coming up soon.

    Liz Wilcox (26:54):
    Yeah. And with the membership or with the yearly, for a year, you get everything inside the membership for a year, but then you get all my other products. So all my trainings, like anything that’s existing, but also anything that I create for the next 365 days. So Laney attended a workshop last month that I did about the current state of open rates and how to do your email metrics. And you know, some people paid for it. It was 50 bucks, but if you’re a yearly member, you don’t have to pay for anything for an entire year. Again, going to like that Costco model of like, I’m really just gathering the membership fee and then you get access to everything. And I actually do live trainings every other month. And then I, I’ve got so many about how to get people to actually care, to open your emails, list, building the basics of email marketing,

    Lanie Lamarre (27:45):
    Your guests.

    Liz Wilcox (27:46):
    Yeah. Lots of things. Lots of things. I’ve got a whole list of things I’m gonna, I’ve got the whole year planned out. I’m gonna do a, a black Friday training and you know, you’ll get black Friday swipes and templates and everything. You know, when you get the yearly, you don’t ever have to buy anything from me again for the next year.

    Lanie Lamarre (28:04):
    But what if people wanna follow you? Where are they gonna do that?

    Liz Wilcox (28:06):
    Yeah. Thanks for asking. um, of course I’m an email marketer. I would love to have you on my email list. That’s the main place where I hang out. Um, you can go to Liz in the top right hand corner. There’s a hot pink button. It says free email swipe. So if you’re like, oh, I’m not ready to commit quite yet. You can get in there. You can see how I teach. You can get my welcome sequence. Three newsletter, examples, and 52 subject lines completely for free. And I will tell you, when you sign up for the welcome sequence, you will get my infamous, can I have $9 email? That’s how I launched the membership. And you’ll see a little bit of my style, a little bit of my vision for you and my value system that I think will be really fun and feel free to totally swipe that email. I saw somebody launched a $9 membership two days ago and used my can I have $9 email. And it just made my whole freaking day

    Lanie Lamarre (28:59):
    if ever I go down that road, I’m 100% swiping that email. I love the way you do business Liz, you know this, but it should be spread across as far and wide as possible because it’s really refreshing to see the way you’re doing business and how successful you are at doing it.

    Liz Wilcox (29:17):
    Yeah. Thank you so much, Lanie. This was so fun. Thank you.

    Lanie Lamarre (29:19):

    Go behind-the-scenes and check out Liz’s membership for just $9


  • What To Do When Your EMAIL MARKETING Just Isn’t Working

    This is a transcript from episode 65 of the OMGrowth podcast

    I’m Lanie Lamarre and I would like to know where all my bobby pins go to die. I keep buying them, and they keep evaporating, and I’m not sure what happens in-between… but I know that I’m fresh-out of bobby pins and I’d love to an episode of Stranger Things dedicated to that.

    Just as I would like to know what happens to my bobby pins, I’m sure you have equally puzzling concerns about your email marketing so today, we’re answering a bunch of the questions you have ask about why your email marketing is not working.

    I like to say “the beginning is always a good place to start” (because it is!) and when it comes to improving your email marketing efforts, the beginning does not start with what YOU are doing, but with what the technology is doing.


    Before you change anything with your approach to email marketing, it’s a good idea to look at your email deliverability. Email deliverability is a term used to describe the ability for an email that you send to reach an inbox to which you’re sending it.

    So how do you know where your email deliverability status stands? You can use a deliverability audit service and I speak more in-depth about this in episode 41 of the podcast, which I will link in the shownotes.

    You don’t need a perfect score to have good deliverability rates, either. For instance, I’m not especially concerned that the emails sent to domain are not being delivered; I do not have any email subscribers who are registered with this domain and I don’t suspect I’m a big deal in Russia (which is what the top-level domain “.ru” represents). I’m not an Olympian and it is not worth the effort for me to seek out a perfect score among the Russian judges, and I encourage you to use the same type of discernment as you review your own results.

    Since we already have a whole episode dedicated to this and there are a lot more questions to answer, let’s get cracking on some of the other concerns you may have about your email marketing.


    If you aren’t satisfied with how many people are clicking through on the links you’re embedding in your emails, consider checking yourself. I’m not being sassy, either – I mean this literally: open your emails and look at your links.

    • Is it obvious that these are links? Are they different colors and are they underlined differently from the rest of the text? Are your links visible, easy-to-find and frequently displayed?
    • Are your calls-to-action (CTAs) strong, clear and compelling?
    • Have you tested your links on desktop, mobile AND tablet to ensure they work on all devices and see if there’s anything that can be improved about those specific user experiences?
    • Are you sending the same emails to your entire list? Would there be a benefit to further segmenting your list and changing the messaging within your emails to speak to your subscribers in a more direct, personalized manner, like we talked about in episode 63?

    Another approach to improvement would be to completely disassociate yourself from your status as a marketer and approach your content with fresh eyes.

    Examine your subject lines and pay attention to the first line of text that shows up in the inbox, and then ask yourself, “Would I click on that? Am I offering a compelling reason to open this email? Am I connecting with my audience in this subject line?”

    If you aren’t sure, it may be worth testing different subject lines to really see what does and does not connect with your subscribers.


    Sometimes called “A/B testing”, split-testing is the practice of publishing more than one version of a marketing asset in order to see and test what your audience responds best to. While it is sometimes used on websites and landing pages to test things like copy, positioning, colors or graphic usage, among other things, most email marketing service providers will allow you to also split-test your email subject lines and/or content to see if version A outperforms version B. (Hence the term A/B Testing.)

    A word of warning before we get into how to split-test your email subject lines: this optimization strategy shouldn’t even be on your radar if you’re sending the email to less than 2000 email subscribers.

    Why? Because that’s what you need to work with in order to begin seeing significant results. Think about it: version A of your email will go to 1000 subscribers while version B is going to another 1000 subscribers. Since we can no longer rely on open rates as an engagement metric (which we discussed in episode 61), we’ll have to focus on click-through rates, which is why you need at least 1000 people whose behaviors and preferences you’re measuring.

    With these numbers, let’s say version A of your email has a click-through rate of 4.5%, which means that 45 people clicked through; meanwhile, version B has a click-through rate of 6.2%, which means that 62 people clicked through.  While version B outperforms version A by 1.7%, we’re talking about just 17 people and the statistical relevance of these smaller sets of numbers makes it hard to gain reliable insights to make any real decisions about your marketing and results.

    Hence why I suggest 2000 subscribers as the absolute minimum list size you want to be working with if you’re going to split-test your subject lines. If your list size is smaller than that, the optimization strategies you’d most benefit from are the ones that focus more on list growth and increasing engagement before you invest your time and effort into testing.

    With that disclaimer out of the way, let’s talk about how you conduct a proper split-test. You’ll want to get downright scientific about what you’re testing and go into your test with a hypothesis. You remember when you did science experiments in school, right? You always started with a hypothesis you were setting out to prove or disprove. 

    Same deal with split-testing!

    Examples are our friends so let’s use one and say we think that our subscribers would be more interested in our emails when we use emojis in the subject line. As such, for the next quarter, we are committing to split-testing each email we send over the next 3 months with subject lines that contain emojis versus ones that don’t.

    “But Lanie,”  you may be saying. “That’s a lot of email!” Yes, as per usual, you’re correct and this is a lot of email. But that’s the point: we want to have enough tests and results to make some accurate assessments about our hypothesis. You don’t “one-and-done” science, amirite?

    If you want the breakdown of how to tag and track and see this data, check out my book Email Marketing Optimization – link for that is in the shownotes.

    But once you wrap up your quarter and you’re doing your quarterly review, you’ll set some time aside to evaluate your results. It’s a good idea to start with your email marketing service analytics to see if you can identify any type of patterns or trends you’re seeing and to make note of anything that gets your attention, especially if there are specific email sets that stand out to you. Then, you can move onto your website analytics to see how each email subject behaves and interacts with your offers and content.

    The example we just used was testing the use of emojis in the subject lines but there are a lot of other things you can test in your subject lines as well. Here are some other subject line-related content you can consider testing:

    • The use of passive voice (like, “subject lines you’ll love”) versus active voice (like, “you’ll love these subject lines”);
    • The use of personalization (like, “Lanie, open this now”) versus non-personalized (like, “You have to open this now”);
    • The use of punctuation (like, “did you know this?” versus “I have to tell you this!”);
    • The use of captions for urgency (like, “[TIME SENSITIVE] Check this out” versus “Today only: Check this out”);
    • The use of intimate language (like, “See you tomorrow?”) versus professional language (like, “Sign up for tomorrow’s workshop”);
    • The use of attention words such as “now”, “free”, and so on.

    Keep in mind that I am not a copywriter and don’t pretend to be an expert at subject lines, although I do have awesome sauce recommendations in the shownotes if you’re looking for that type of help.

    My goal in sharing these is to get your wheels turning with what is available for you to test. Another thing is that even though we’ve been talking about subject lines, there’s a whole lot more you can A/B test in your emails than just subject lines. You can also test that first line of preview text that shows up in the email header, which shows up in the inbox like this:


    You can split-test the language or copy you’re using in your actual emails, or the colors of your links and buttons, or the types of images you’re using in the emails, and of course, as long as you’re getting enough traffic to make the results worth it, you can also split-test your automations and evergreen sequences as well. 

    The email optimization world is truly your oyster but a word of caution: stick to testing just one thing at a time to make sure you have boundaries as to what your results are and to ensure you have clear insights that you’re assessing.

    And remember that your insights are meant to be parlayed. This means that you can and want to extend the trends and patterns you’re seeing with your emails into other areas. For instance, if you’re seeing something that works in your email subject lines, look at how that information can be applied to your social media captions, your sales copy, your advertising campaigns, and more. The better your data is about what your people engage with and how they interact with your content and offers, the easier it is to use that information to see better marketing results in other areas as well.


    When you put so much work into growing your email list, it may not always FEEL like people unsubscribing from your email list is a good thing… but it can be. If people aren’t picking up what you’re throwing down or perhaps they’ve  learned all they’re interested in from you, they’re really doing you a favor by removing themselves as someone who you have something useful to share with. After all, you ARE paying for these subscribers through your email marketing services fees and people aren’t like souvenirs that you have to hang on to.

    Having said that, you don’t want to be seeing more than 2% of your list unsubscribing at a time on a regular basis because it typically means something isn’t right. If those unsubscribes are accompanied with SPAM complaints, this is especially important for you to look into; if people are reporting you as SPAM, this can impact your sender reputation and email deliverability.

    Here are some areas you can look at to help minimize your unsubscribe rates and SPAM complaints, as well as some go-to questions to gain some insights on what exactly you could work on to improve this:


    • How are people getting onto your list? Are they signing up to your offers intentionally or do you have people signing up who don’t really understand what they’re agreeing to receive from you?
    • Is the messaging you’re using to get people on your list the same as what you use once those people are on your list, or could there be a “disconnect” between what your subscriber’s expectations are and what you actually deliver?


    • Are you segmenting your subscribers in a way that is providing them with emails and content relevant to the interests they have for being on your list?
    • Is there a way you could be more precise with how you’re tagging your subscribers’ interests and motives for being on your list so that you can better match their needs with the emails you’re sending?


    • If you have multiple automated email sequences running, is it possible that they overlap each other and you’re overwhelming your new subscribers and/or buyers with too many emails and conflicting promotions or messaging?
    • If you’re running a specific promotion and you’re sending more emails than you usually do, it is normal to see your unsubscribe rates rise during this period. But are you giving people who are not interested in this specific promotion and/or offer the opportunity to opt-out of that series while still being able to stay on your email list and continue receiving correspondence after this promo?
    • Also, consider reviewing the frequency of your email delivery. In this case, you’ll want to do a little cost-benefit analysis by not only focusing on your unsubscribe rates but looking at the number of sales and/or engagement that those same emails generated as well.


    • Similar to the last point, you don’t want to assess an email solely against its unsubscribe rates; you want to assess the overall performance, including click-throughs and sales or engagement generated. You’re seldom able to look at one metric in isolation and have it tell the whole story of your performance, and you will have to look at the “big picture” of what happened to understand if it’s the actual content of your emails that need to be changed.
    • We spoke of split-testing your subject lines earlier but you can also split-test the actual types of content in your emails. Do your people respond better to video? Do they prefer long-form emails or shorter ones? Have you tested the use of GIFs and images versus text-only?

    There’s a reason why almost every email marketing service integrates testing options into its platforms; all marketing is a constant wash-rinse-repeat process of testing, assessing and modifying how we’re promoting ourselves, our messages and our offers.

    We’re often so focused on getting more traffic and more subscribers that we overlook the optimization opportunities we already have to build on our existing list. As such, improving our email marketing performance isn’t always our first priority, even though it can result in the biggest returns.

    There’s a lot that goes into your own email marketing optimization and my new book Email Marketing Optimization covers a whole lot more of that ground if this is a priority for you.

    But here’s the kicker: you’re never going to be done with any of this. All digital marketing is a wash-rinse-repeat process of publishing, tracking and improving, and then taking what you’ve learned to publish, track and improve, all over again.

    While your email list is usually your most engaged traffic source, HOW engaged they are is completely up to you. You have a responsibility towards these lovely people who have put their trust and contact information in your hands. 

    Try to always keep in mind what a privilege it is for you to have and foster this relationship with your subscribers, and that like all relationships, you want to do everything you can to make the benefits mutual and to deliver those benefits as often as possible.

    And if you want help, I have a book dedicated to that and dedicated to youit’s true, you can read the dedication and see for yourself – because I’ve told you this before but you’re favorite. Talk soon!


  • Why Your CHECKOUT PAGE Is Low-Lying Fruit For Better Results with DAMA JUE

    This is a transcript of episode 64 of the OMGrowth podcast

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    I’m Lanie Lamarre and here’s the problem with having great guests like Dama Jue: you can talk to them for hours about really cool, insightful ways to optimize your results and bottom line, and this makes it nearly impossible to edit those episodes down to the usual 10-15 minute format. Miss Dama was struggling with a sore throat on this one but something she definitely does NOT struggle with is getting us all to re-think the low-lying fruit for seeing more and better sales conversions, and why we can’t afford to be as complacent with accepting payments as maybe we have been.

    Dama Jue (00:00):
    I map out all my products. I map out my, you know, when you have days where you’re like, Ooh, I’m just a full of ideas. I’m gonna, I need to write it down. I do that in whimsical because then I can add branches and like, they turn into mind maps and then those mind maps turn into course structures. And then I go through and check them off as I do, as I record them. And as I produce them and as I create the page, like, it’s just whimsical is whoa.

    Lanie Lamarre (00:24):
    Oh my God, stop it. That’s so like that, those sorts of tools are straight up flirting with me. I was just talking to, oh, I was talking to Diane Mayer recently. Mm-hmm, showing her built where it will show you any website that you want and show you like how it was built, what plugins they’re using, what they have installed, what tracking, and it show you for yourself. And it’ll show you for any domain that you enter. And I’ll give you the timelines of like, when they installed it, when they didn’t, uh, uninstalled it. And you’re like, oh my God, this is

    Dama Jue (00:53):
    All I love you. And built with, to creep on things, to creep on people, to creep on just like, this is so good. How are they doing this? Oh, we big fan.

    Lanie Lamarre (01:01):
    There’s just so many really cool tools out there, but oh totally DMA chew. You are going to talk to us today. Not about all the cool tools you know about, but about, uh, checkout pages, which is on its own cool tool that we don’t think enough about.

    Dama Jue (01:17):
    Oh, it’s totally the for forget the forgotten middle child, like a hundred percent.

    Lanie Lamarre (01:20):
    Yeah, for totally. This is where they’re literally hitting the pay now or buy now button. And yet we are just using what everyone else is using. We spend all this time on sales pages on writing the perfect copy on getting the perfect images on the colors and the buttons and the, this and that. And you, when it comes time to actually get that commitment, we’re just like, yeah, the standard thing is fine.

    Dama Jue (01:41):
    Oh totally. You would not believe how many. So I use thrive cart. Um, and there’s this standard like greenish color that they have as like their default checkout button color, you would not believe how many checkouts I see with that generic, teal color. There’s no info on the page. And I’m just like, oh baby, you’re just, you’re just missing out so much here. And there’s just such a little thing, a few little things you can do that can have a big impact. But yeah, like you said, people treat sales pages. They are absolutely the Regina George of like your funnel, right? Your sales page is everything. Everybody cares about how she’s dressed, what she’s wearing, what she’s saying and like what your copy is on your sales page. And the design. I have had clients who are more than happy to throw thousands of dollars at the copy.

    Dama Jue (02:29):
    Thousands of dollars at the sales page design. And now I’m not gonna say there’s anything wrong with that. It’s important, right? It’s your number one, selling asset. You’re investing in revenue when you really focus on those on that page. But it’s like saying you picked out the perfect dress and you just walk in and you’re ratty like slippers, you know, like it’s missing out on taking it to the next level with your checkout page. It’s just, what are you doing, girl? Like, I’m gonna look down and see that you came. And you’re like, ratty flip Flo said, you’re wearing this fabulous gown. Like it’s just, you’re missing out.

    Lanie Lamarre (03:01):
    I totally get where that thought process comes in or doesn’t come in. Because again, yeah, we’re always talking about the sales page and most platforms like I use Kartra I used to use thrive cart. Um, when I had, you know, my everything separate, but I’m all in one with Kartra now. But if I were to leave that I’ve thought long and hard multiple times to go back to thrive card, just because it seems to be a lot more customizable than it used to be when I was with it. And typically platforms don’t allow you to customize a checkout page, which is why we’re just so used to, this is what checkout pages look like. Mm-hmm,

    Dama Jue (03:35):
    super simple. Here’s the buy now button. Here’s where you put your credit card info. Very simple. And the thing is, is that what I found is that if you’ve ever used a software called Haja, which is like, where you can actually see how people kick in your sales page, and if you’ve ever done that, you’ll notice that there are two kinds of people. People who read every word yeah. On the sales page, they read every word they, you can see as they track with their mouse. Like they, you can see them reading every word. And then there’s the other people who read, read the headline, look for the first, take tummy, more button. And they jump down to the stack. They read the stack, they read what’s included. They wanna know the price. And then that’s it. You might have some people spend seven to 10 minutes on a sales page.

    Dama Jue (04:19):
    Let me just tell you that’s the very mm-hmm that’s uncommon. Most people will not read every word of your assiduously carefully ho crafted sales copy. They’re just not most people are like, mm-hmm okay. What’s the price. Yeah. And what’s included. Um, and so they always wanna see the mockup. They wanna see what’s included like bullet points, like very nitty gritty. And then if they’re intrigued, they may scroll on down to testimonials. Um, they may skim those. They may skim the bonus section. Those are popular, but most people, and I wanna say it’s varied depending on the audience, but I wanna say higher than 70% as a ballpark. Um, let me jump to the bottom cuz that’s what I care about. I want the numbers and I want what’s included. Let’s go. And then if they’re interested, they’re checking and going to the checkout page and where the checkout page can fall down on the job is if it’s bland, if it doesn’t have any additional info, because I don’t know about you, but I’m a tab hoarder. And before I was an entrepreneur, I would like have two, three tabs open. And that was it.

    Lanie Lamarre (05:22):
    You’re looking at my screen. How could you access it?

    Dama Jue (05:25):
    Right? And so like, now I will have anywhere like 30 tabs open is pretty like modest for me. That’s pretty minimal. I can have anywhere to, up to like 200 tabs open. And so what matters is what did I leave open in a tab? And the reason I leave things open a tab is cause I’m gonna come back to ’em, I’m a procrastinator. I’m the kind of person who’s gonna wait till the last minute I’ve got other things going on in my business that are hotter fires. So I’m not gonna decide if I wanna buy this program right now, but I’m gonna go ahead and leave it open in a tab. Cuz I promise I’ll come back to it. Right. I may or may not. But there are a couple things that are gonna help me decide, do I still want this thing? And often the checkout page can be one of them.

    Lanie Lamarre (06:05):
    No kidding. I never even thought of that. But you were so right about that where you just keep that page open and you don’t actually follow through. And then if it doesn’t resonate with you, when you go back to it or if it doesn’t have that same like wow factor that you got on the sales page, you might just close that tab.

    Dama Jue (06:20):
    Right? Exactly. So, because I’m a data nerd, like you, I see how long people are on a page. I see how long I, you can see that data right in your analytics. So

    Lanie Lamarre (06:30):
    Be like, what are you doing 20 minutes? I

    Dama Jue (06:31):
    Know like you just, it’s just posted there. Like, did they walk away? Did the dogs start barking? Right? And so you can see people are actually hanging out on this checkout page. If I walk away, go grab a glass of water. If you’re like me and you have a squirrel brain and you’re like, oh, I’m walking downstairs to get a glass of water. I’m gonna throw this load to dry. Oh I need to email. So and so back about that podcast, like our brains are going a million miles limit. Oh I never scheduled that email. I’m gonna go do that. You know? Like we just have so many things going on that by the time I come back, if this checkout page is bland and vanilla and doesn’t have any branding, doesn’t have any sales assets on it, then I’m just gonna be like, yeah, whatever, close this. It’s not worth the very limited bandwidth that my mind has. And so I’ll just close it and forget it. And that’s the end of it. And so when we tab park things, right. If when we come back to them, they’re not compelling if it’s just like, whatever we close it. And that’s it sale lost, came over.

    Lanie Lamarre (07:23):
    Yeah. I’ve seen people not have sales pages and just have a really sweet checkout page with all of the information on there. And it’s like one less thing, one less barrier for people to give you their money essentially, or to sign up for your thing. And yeah,

    Dama Jue (07:40):
    I’m one of those

    Lanie Lamarre (07:40):
    People, like I can think the last three purchases I made online, they were clearly just checkout pages. Mm-hmm that were set up as sales page. They told me what I needed to know and get out.

    Dama Jue (07:49):
    Right. Oh. And I’m, I’m one of those people I have long form sales pages, but mainly I have mid form sales pages that are like medium long because people just wanna know the dead nitty gritty. Right. Yeah. But I also have sold from checkouts that are a little judged up. I cannot be a plain checkout page. You need to give people some contacts of what’s included, but I’ve absolutely made thousands of dollars selling straight from a checkout. And in fact, I have a template shop, fourth ride cart. That is just like, here you go. Wanna just get an idea out the door, use one of these pages that were designed just for that. It’s almost like the sales page condensed to just one little screen of like, here’s what you need to know go. Yeah. And when you’re ready, you can expand that out to a full sales page, but I’ve definitely sold just some checkouts.

    Lanie Lamarre (08:31):
    I, how brilliant is that when you’re, you know, testing a product or something or testing an idea to see, would people even buy this thing, uh, before you go in and not only create the whole product, build the whole sales page and all the, the ed up the church up stuff, when really you just need to validate that idea.

    Dama Jue (08:46):
    Absolutely. And it works really nicely with your warm audience, with your email list. Like they know you, they know that you’re smart, you know, your stuff, they read your emails, but they, and so they don’t necessarily need all the rigmarole of like, this is for the co list of cold leads, a stranger who stumble tumbles in off the street and finds the sales page. These are for your people. And so I’ve absolutely sold from checkout and it works best with your email list. And it’s just like, y’all know what I’m good for. Let’s roll. And you know, here’s the thing, are you coming?

    Lanie Lamarre (09:14):
    So what are the things that you would say are biggest lost opportunities in a checkout page that people can easily tweak or optimize that, that you’ve seen the biggest results or differences from?

    Dama Jue (09:26):
    Yeah, absolutely. So I have, let’s say three must haves that a checkout page just needs, like if you don’t have this go fix now the product or the offer name needs to be on there and loud and clear, you know how sometimes checkouts it’s like, it looks like a receipt. Like it’s very normal print. Very small.

    Lanie Lamarre (09:44):

    Dama Jue (09:44):
    Yeah. That is, that is insufficient. My friends that is not sufficient,

    Lanie Lamarre (09:48):
    Especially with what you’re saying with this tab, hoarding is something I never really put any thought into, but you’re totally right. What was this for? Anyway, of course you need to know,

    Dama Jue (09:57):
    Right. What on earth is this? And if it takes even two seconds to find guaranteed, people are gonna click

    Lanie Lamarre (10:02):
    Off closing that window.

    Dama Jue (10:03):
    We are so conditioned with 62nd audio video. Now it’s 32nd video. Now it’s like 15 second video. And the current trend is seven second reels on Instagram. Our attention span is so short and there’s so much vine for our attention that if you are not right up front, very crystal clear what this offer is. Get out. We’re just gonna close the tab. I already have 72 other tabs while you’re paying attention. Like I get time to scan this teen tiny, fine print nonsense. Like your product name needs to be loud and clear the, the price and the payment plan options. Obviously, if you’re gonna have a LAR a more expensive product, you know, over several hundred dollars, you, you might wanna have a payment plan, but the price needs to be crystal clear again, not teeny tiny. And then the big thing that I see people missing quite a bit as they use, especially some of the more bold schooly type software is that the checkout is not mobile optimized. It needs to look good on your phone. Oh my gosh.

    Lanie Lamarre (11:00):

    Dama Jue (11:01):
    If you have no idea what your checkouts look like on your phone, like hit pause, and go look at your checkouts of your most popular products. What do they look like on your phone? They need to be mobile optimized. 80% of traffic on average is mobile. So we gotta talk about that.

    Lanie Lamarre (11:16):
    yeah. And another way to check on that too, is if you’re looking in your analytics for your checkout software and you can see what devices people are using, and people are never checking out on mobile, there’s probably a problem with your mobile traffic. Cause it’s not cause people aren’t buying.

    Dama Jue (11:31):
    No, it’s exactly that. Yeah. And so if you have no idea what it looks like in mobile, open that page on your phone, or even quicker, if you use like Chrome, right? And you’re looking at your checkout page on desktop, right. Click and click inspect, and then there’s gonna be like a little bar at the top. That’ll let you view things as like an iPhone or an Android or whatever. You can see things as they would look on a phone without even having to get your phone out. And so in 10 seconds you can see is my checkout page mobile optimized. So I think the biggest thing is have your offer name loud and clear and make sure that it’s mobile optimized because sometimes things overlap funny and ain’t nobody got time for that. They’re just gonna close.

    Lanie Lamarre (12:08):
    It’ll also impact your searchability. Mm-hmm because if you are not, if your checkout page isn’t mobile optimized people, won’t be able to find your checkout page on a Google search. If they already know what they want and they’re looking for, right. You will not come up.

    Dama Jue (12:21):
    Right. Yeah. And I, I think that that is definitely looking long term, but in the immediate, for sure if I can’t read it or if I can’t click the button or if it’s not reading properly, like forget it. I gotta go. I don’t have time for this.

    Lanie Lamarre (12:35):
    Yeah, absolutely.

    Dama Jue (12:36):
    Yeah. So I would say the offer name and mobile optimize are the two biggest must, must, must haves. And your price needs to be on there clearly. And then I like to add two or three, but I call conversion boosters. And so things that you already have them and they can make such a difference. So let me share some of my favorites, a product mockup, I guarantee you’ve already got that on your sales page, throw the mockup on your checkout as well. Right? People love a visual reminder of what they’re buying and what they’re getting. Especially if you have one of those mockups, that’s like, here’s this here’s this here’s, this here’s this, you know, it really gives an overview of what they’re getting. Throw that mock up on your checkout page. I I’m always shocked when I don’t see them. I’m like, why your designer already made this graphic?

    Dama Jue (13:16):
    Or you made this graphic. Why did you not just slap it on the checkout page so easy? And then you can add a few other things. If you have a short and snappy testimonial, I know that on your long form sales page, you probably have these beautiful long gushing novel type testimonials. You might even have video. Those don’t have place on a checkout page. I’m looking at like one sentence, two sentence, like Lenny’s product for air table. Cut my stress in half. Or I saved this much on X, Y, and Z by just switching to this. Like I even actually want it to be no longer than two lines. Like really snappy because people won’t read them. Otherwise mm-hmm one or two short snappy testimonials can make a big difference. Especially if you’ve been tab part, people have walked away or forgotten about the product.

    Dama Jue (14:00):
    They forgot about your sales emails. They skimed your sales copy days ago. Now it’s just like, oh shoot. Uh, this is closing soon. And they’re looking at the very bare minimum price mock up one or two snappy testimonials that can really go a long way to remind them of the benefits without you having to shout out the benefits all over again. And you can add a few other things, countdown, timers, you can remind them about bonuses. You could do a really quick bullet point list of what’s included. There’s lots of other options and things Fons, which is, seems like such a silly thing. But if they’re a tab hoarder, then yeah. Having a Fon set up on your page can be such a difference. Little things like that can really add up to that. Remember, like, I remember why I saved this page. I remember why I was intrigued by this product. And that is really half of closing deal. It’s just, we have so many things fine for our attention, if you can help them, remember why. Yeah, absolutely makes a difference.

    Lanie Lamarre (14:56):
    Every time you say something, I’m just going through my own memory of looking at my own stuff, being like, oh yeah, shit, that’s totally bang on. It’s just it’s human behavior. And making sure that your checkout page also matches your regular brand with the Falon and all these other things that you’re just like, this is mm-hmm, just fluid. This just makes it all cohesive.

    Dama Jue (15:14):
    Absolutely. Yeah. And so I started noticing as I’ve built many funnels for clients, more than happy to throw all their time and attention at the sales page and check out pages were just kind of cast aside. So I started paying attention. I started AB testing. Um, and that’s another reason why I love thrive. Heart is you can AB test checkouts in thrive heart, and it’ll just automatically take care of it for you. And you can design two different ones and see which one is more performant. I love that. And so I started testing things and that’s really what led me to create this kind of collection of proven tested high converting checkout templates. And, and that’s how the thrive cart template shop is born.

    Lanie Lamarre (15:49):
    So how do people get to spy on these awesome sauce templates actually see this in action because when you see these things, you start getting the envy that I have being like, maybe I should just go back to thrive cart

    Dama Jue (16:01):
    yeah. Head to thrive, cart template, Um, I have lots of trainings there and actually one of my favorite things that I love to send people to is my thrive cart flow. Um, actually shows people this funnel that I built that is using one software, zero zaps. Like I love Zapier API, whatever, but the less I need to pay them the better, the less opportunity for automations to break. Yes, the better. And so my full funnel with multiple levels and all this other stuff is all built in thrive cart. And my course delivery, it’s all in thrive cart. Everything is in thrive cart. So I paid once for this software and it’s just working for me like a boss, apple sauce, as you would say, like it’s just handling all the business, no zaps. A lot of people have asked me about that. And so I send them to my funnel flow and they can actually see the behind the scenes, like with wire frames and all those goodies and the pros and cons of how I’m using thrive cars and they full funnel solution. And you can also see check out my templates and actually creep. I mean, I do full page previews of them. So you can creep on some of these options. And, and if that takes you to a light bulb moment of like, wow, okay, I need to update some of my checkouts, um, go and run with it or, or grab the collection and take the easy

    Lanie Lamarre (17:12):
    Way I’m going to link to your creep worthy video. in the show notes. I maybe I’ve had this conversation enough with enough people at this point, but I feel like creeping, we’re all doing it. Let’s just admit it. And let’s actually make it easier for people to creep on how we’re operating in our own businesses to sort of share how you can actually streamline things, actually having something that flows as easily as you want it to.

    Dama Jue (17:36):
    Oh, absolutely. And I’ll be honest. Before I launched the template shop, I went and looked for templates cuz I was like, I don’t wanna have to create this on my own. I’m ready to take the help, but I couldn’t find any good templates. I looked and Googled and I was like, seriously. And I just thought there, this can’t be all there is. And I really couldn’t find anything else. There were either very bland, like chinsy generic ones or they were very Broy and I was like, there has gotta be some kind of chic and converting and high end and beautiful templates out there. And there worked and I was ready to, I was on the creep, you know, I was looking for INPO and I couldn’t find it. So I thought, okay, here I go, let’s go. Let’s do this. And that’s really what came up.

    Lanie Lamarre (18:14):
    Looks like you’re the one who has to create it.

    Dama Jue (18:17):
    Yes. Turns out if no one’s gonna do it. Oh, all right. I’ll do it.

    Lanie Lamarre (18:20):
    Oh, all right. I did the same thing with air table. Like a boss when I was looking to learn more about air table and I really wanted someone to just show me all of it instead of me just staring at it. What is this capable of? Uh, but I couldn’t find anything. And that’s when I created the course in the first place, it feels like a million years ago at this point, just because I couldn’t find anything. So you had to do it yourself. Sometimes. It’s what you have to do.

    Dama Jue (18:40):
    Sometimes you just gotta put on your big row pants and get out there and do it. But if there are good templates, I’m always happy to grab them, but there just weren’t. So I had to be, I had to be the big girl and go out and launch and do it. But yeah, I invite folks to creep on it, creep on the page, creep on the, the free trainings and all that stuff. I loved creating that training. Something that I’m super proud of. That mini training. It’s 15 minutes long. Yeah. I have to tell you that I have created webinars, but nothing in my life is as hard as creating a 15 minute training because I like to talk and there’s a lot involved and I really wanted to give, give, give, but it, I told folks I’m gonna keep it to 15 minutes because like we talked about earlier, attention pants, attention spans. Right. They’re short. And I know personally, I don’t watch 90 minute webinars. I dunno about you, but I’m just like hashtag anybody got time for that. Yeah. Um, but if I can see a 15 minute training and maybe even launch it on two X with subtitles, like I’m in a hundred percent and um, I think that’s, it was really hard. I’m not gonna lie. So that’s why I think if you haven’t checked it out, you should for sure. Check it out. It it’s, I think it’s a piece of art

    Lanie Lamarre (19:41):
    . Now, if people wanna creep on you, where are they going to do that?

    Dama Jue (19:45):
    Yeah. I mainly hang out on Facebook. I mainly hang out in Facebook groups cuz I like to hang out and connect with people. Collaborations are so much a big part of my business and making and networking and making friends. So find me on Facebook. I also, um, am on Instagram for the DMS. I’m not really much of a poster, but I hang out on Instagram. My handle is details, Dotto, DOMA. Um, and I also have the other handle that I use is thrive park company shop. So I’m hang, I hang out on Instagram mainly to take it all in and, and creep, but I’m there for the DMS, but I’m mainly, um, hanging out on Facebook or on email. My FA all my energy really goes to hanging out with people on my email list

    Lanie Lamarre (20:23):
    Where you’re actually connecting and engaging smart lady. Yeah.

    Dama Jue (20:27):
    I’m living for the replies. I just love it.

    Lanie Lamarre (20:29):
    I will put links to all these things in the show notes, make it easy for people to click on through to you. Thank you so much for being here. Thank you so much for creating the change that we all need. And actually making us think a little bit about those lost opportunities that kind of are totally within grass.

    Dama Jue (20:44):
    Totally. They were just right there. It’s the low hanging fruit and it’s really not that hard and you don’t have to spend another several thousand dollars to get it right. And to get it and to make a big difference. It

    Lanie Lamarre (20:53):
    Is always the low hanging fruit that gets you the biggest results. The 80 20 rule

    Dama Jue (20:58):
    Mm-hmm . I love it.


  • My EMAIL TAGGING and SEGMENTATION STRATEGY for Data-Driven, Customer-Focused Bosses

    This is a transcript from episode 63 of the OMGrowth podcast

    I’m Lanie Lamarre and I’m a big fan of what I call “party water”. That’s bubbly water with fun flavors like mango and peach and pineapple – you know, party flavors! – and for the quantity that I drink, I’m certifiably a party water animal.

    Now, depending on the type of business you run, that could be useful information for you to know if I were your client. I mean, for most of you listening, it’s probably a terrible example but I promise you I have more examples that are much better-suited for today’s episode…

    Because we’ll be talking about email tagging and segmentation, some best practices and all of the superpowers it can give you like improved deliverability and better affiliate sales, and who doesn’t want more of that?


    You have an overall email list but in order to begin sending hyper-targeted emails to the “right people” who will be most open and receptive to receiving what you’re sharing in those emails, you want to adopt a practice that is referred to as “email segmentation”. This happens when you divide that overall contacts into smaller, more defined groups, or segments.

    “But Lanie!”, you may say. “I only talk about one thing. All of my subscribers share the exact same, single interest.” Cool beans! That simplifies things… but you still want to segment your audience based on where they are in their interactions with you.

    For instance, if they already bought the offer you’re going to remind your list about next week, you either:

    a) don’t want to send those promotional emails to that segment of your audience who already purchased it; or

    b) you want to send a modified version that reminds your buyers of the great features their past purchase that they can revisit and continue benefiting from.

    See what I mean about meting people where they are in their interactions with you? Basically it’s the same message – “hey! look at my offer!” – but it’s shared in different ways that are an appropriate reflection of how they’ve interacted with you and your offers so far.

    Tagging and segmenting is like a muscle; the more you use it, the more uses you’ll find for it and the stronger your game will be from putting it to use.

    What is the difference between “segments” and “tags”?

    This is one of those “similar but different” concepts where both terms serve the same purpose – in this case, to identify a specific quality or aspect of a person – but each is used in a different way.

    When you segment a list, you’re taking your overall contacts to create “micro-lists” based on something that defines them. Think of it as the citizenship they have in your world, and they can be citizens of several segments as they may be citizens of just one.

    Meanwhile, when you tag a person on your list, you’re creating reference points for their preferences and behaviors.

    I’m a big fan of examples to paint a picture so let’s use one and say you run a group program. You have one email list with 2 segments: one segment made up of your overall list and another segment for the people who are paid members of your program.

    Having these two segments allows you to use your “paid members” segment to communicate program-related information to the people who are already a part of your membership while you can take your “overall list” segment to exclude anyone who is in the “paid members” segment when you’re sending promotions that encourage people to join the program.


    As for tagging, you’ll tag people based on interests, preferences and behaviors. What does that look like?

    Let’s push this example further and say you’re running a promotion to your membership. You now want to follow-up with those who showed interest in joining your membership but have yet to follow-through; you can tag the people who clicked a link in your promotional emails to visit your sales page as having shown interest in the program. 


    Furthermore, if you have the different types of people in your audience – say you help fitness professionals – you could tag your audience based on whether they identify as fitness competitors, personal trainers or brand models/ambassadors. This will allow you to hyper-customize your messages and promotions to these 3 different interest groups you serve, and adapt your message to the specific incentives you can offer each interest group has to join.

    Think of your segments as the overarching lists such as the contacts you promote to, your buyers and then your affiliates, while your tags are more interest- and behavior-based tools to help you define and identify aspects of your subscribers that will better equip you to serve them.

    Let’s turn this example into a case study of someone who uses your segments to demonstrate their communication preferences.


    Someone subscribes to your list, which populates them into your “overall promo” segment. They take a quiz that identifies them as a “brand ambassador”, which is an identifier you tag them with.

    They go on to visit your sales page and they attend a few of your workshops, all of which are behaviors you also tagged them with. 

    Because you sent targeted emails to those who showed interest in the product, this person eventually did buy your product and you can then add them to your segment of buyers. In fact, they loved your product so much that they signed up to become an affiliate, which is another segment they’ve been added to.

    Meanwhile, their brand ambassador status means they have an inbox so cluttered and busy, even the messiest teenager would be critical. Your subscriber decided to de-clutter their inbox and they’ve chosen to opt out of receiving further promotional emails from you, but they also want to keep receiving affiliate and product updates.

    Had you not segmented this person, they may have unsubscribed entirely from your email list. This could get messy when they tried to access their purchase again but couldn’t after unsubscribing, and it could cost you some word-of-mouth sales your affiliate program may have otherwise continued sharing with them.

    Had you not tagged this person, you may not have known enough about this person to craft the hyper-targeted message for brand ambassadors who already showed interest in the product that resulted in the sale of your product, and the subsequent affiliate sales they brought to you as well.

    Establishing a strategic approach to the way you segment and tag your subscribers will consume some of your time, energy and brain space, but the above example should demonstrate the value in doing so for both your subscribers as well as your own bottom line.


    I’ve already alluded to some of the ways in which you will segment your list so let’s start with those:


    As a baseline, you want to create a segment for the buyers of each of your offers and there are a few reasons for this.

    The first reason is that if someone decides they want to unsubscribe from your marketing materials but they want to continue receiving updates on a product they bought from you, creating this type of segmentation will empower them to do that.

    You may grumble about not being able to pitch new offers to them, but this would be a short-sighted view. Someone who wants to continue receiving product updates is clearly happy with the product they purchased. They may not want to hear about your offers anymore but they still want in on what you’ve brought to their table and that has value. After all, these are the types of people you can count on for word-of-mouth; the opportunity to reach out to them to let them know you’ve updated something they already got value from is also an opportunity to be front-of-mind for a moment, which is all-the-more reason to keep engaging with your buyers after the purchase and to avoid investing your entire email marketing efforts on just sales and pitches.

    Another reason you want to segment your buyers is for a reason that was touched on already: when you’re promoting an offer they’ve already bought, you don’t want to pitch this segment with something they have already paid you for. However, that doesn’t mean you can’t also email these subscribers during this time. 

    The difference is that while you’re sending emails that pitch your product to non-buyers, it’s a great opportunity to switch that messaging out for the people who already purchased your offer and let them know this is a great time to join your affiliate program to make sales during this promotional period, or to remind them of updates or changes you’ve made to the product that they may want to revisit and continue receiving value from.

    And finally, by segmenting your buyers, it is easier for you to personalize upsell and downsell messages based on where they’ve already invested. For instance, if you’re promoting a new offer, you may write a more targeted email that speaks directly to those who have some experience with your products versus what you will write to those who have never bought anything from you.

    You want your people to feel seen. You want your people to feel like you’re connected and meeting them where they are rather than just selling them what you want them to buy. You want your people to feel like they’re valued and they aren’t “just another email address” you market to.

    The simplest way to achieve this is to put some time, effort and intention behind “seeing” and segmenting your buyers intentionally and appropriately.


    Affiliates are people who have raised their hand and said “I’ll vouch for you and your offers!”. The idea is that if they direct buyers towards your offers like air traffic control, you can thank them by paying out a commission or affiliate payment every time they do so.

    It’s a good idea to either tag or better yet, segment these subscribers from your email list because the communication you share with them will be very different from your “regular” emails. In fact, you may have people segmented as affiliates on your list who are not and don’t want to be subscribed to your promotions and offers, and you want to accommodate that. After all, it would be a shame to discourage someone from giving you “online street cred” when they spread the word about you, just because they aren’t interested in receiving your promotional emails.

    In any case, you will be sending emails to this group about your promotions but the messaging of the emails you send to this segment will be very different from the ones you send the rest of your list. First of all, you will typically be letting this segment know of promotions ahead of time so they can prepare to promote them before your main email list even knows about it. You’ll likely also be sharing folders of done-for-you promotional materials like social media graphics and swipe copy that will help your affiliates sell your offers and these are materials you wouldn’t share with your main email list.

    That’s why it’s a good idea to keep a segment of your list that is separate and dedicated to your affiliate subscribers as the way you communicate with them is also separate and dedicated.


    I used the earlier example of a business serving fitness professionals with multiple sub-categories for the people it serves, including fitness competitors, personal trainers and brand models/ambassadors.

    With some of the first few emails you send, you may ask your new subscribers to self-identify and tag them accordingly. This allows you to not only create more targeted communications but it also provides you with deeper insights as to what your audience consists of, which may influence how you choose to market yourself with paid advertisements, social media messaging and even your offers.

    Another strategy to interact and get subscribers to self-identify is with a quiz. A quiz can be used as a lead magnet that encourages people to sign up to your email list, but it can also help you hone in on those interests and characteristics you want to tag and target.

    While industry or job title is one area where your people can self-identify, other aspects you can consider tagging are their goals, their values, their location, their lifestyle, their opinions, or their gender, just to name a few.

    Keep in mind that these are just examples and you don’t want to be collecting personal information you don’t need and would not use. 

    For instance, if your offers aren’t geo-centric, then you don’t want to be collecting information about their location when you’re never going to actually use it. However, if you run a t-shirt shop with multiple locations that each has its own events and promotions, it would be relevant for you to collect this person’s location to better keep them informed of the events happening at their local shop.


    You can also tag people based on how they’re engaging with your communications and offers. For instance, you’ll tag people based on which opt-ins or lead magnets they’ve signed up to join on your email list and you may tag specific links they clicked-through in your emails and/or pages they visited.

    How your subscribers are engaging with your brand and its content can be valuable information. How? Because you can use that information to:

    • Determine the conversion rates for different types of subscribers and hone in on how and why specific types of subscribers convert to sales better than others;
    • Assess the popularity of specific offers – both paid and free – as well as the subsequent engagement levels you expect based on a subscriber’s interests, attendance or engagement;
    • Follow up with subscribers who didn’t buy your offer, but engaged with/showed interest in your promotional materials; and
    • Identify trends in the way you’re currently promoting that you can parlay into future marketing campaigns to see better results with your next efforts.


    It’s a good idea, whenever possible, to tag how people came onto your list. You can and should expect to see wildly varying engagement levels based on how people found you and joined your email list.

    For instance, a joint venture where someone else vouched for your expertise will attract a different type of subscriber than your paid ad campaigns would.

    Likewise, people who opted into your list to download a PDF will typically exhibit different behaviors than the people who opted-in to a workshop where you dropped all the knowledge bombs.

    This use of tags can be useful when you’re trying to identify trends in interests and behaviors from people who have already bought from you. This way, you can easily identify those free offers you want to put in front of people you’re trying to warm up prior to launching and you can identify which opt-ins aren’t supporting your business the way you want them to when it comes to engagement or unsubscribe rates.


    Another thing worth tracking is HOW engaged a subscriber is. If someone isn’t reading or engaging with your emails, that’s a problem and it’s one you want to address.

    You don’t want people ignoring your emails and you certainly don’t want to be paying for the “privilege” to do so. Because here’s the fact of it: the more subscribers you have on your email list, the higher the service fees are from your email marketing service. That’s just one of the many reasons why you don’t want to carry people through as subscribers if they’re just deleting and/or ignoring your emails.

    Another key reason you don’t want to keep unengaged subscribers on your email list is because it can impact the deliverability of your emails. We’ll talk about this more in my book Email Marketing Optimization but when your deliverability rates are impacted, it means that the people who actually want to receive your emails either a) won’t receive them at all or b) you’ll end up in their spam folder instead of their inbox. 

    That’s why you keep tabs on the engagement level of your subscribers and once they reach a certain point of disengagement, you can then take action to either re-engage them or unsubscribe them for your email list since you’ve confirmed that they aren’t interested in your communications any longer. We’ll also explore re-engagement sequences and how they work in Email Marketing Optimization but before you can re-engage your subscribers, you’ll have to prioritize keeping tabs on their engagement levels in the first place.

    For most online businesses, your buyers and your affiliates in addition to your promotional contact list will be what make up your segments, and anything that has to do with characteristics, behaviors and interests will be a tag.

    However, what I’ve share with your today are just suggestions; there are no “rules” about any of this. Remember that you’re the boss, apple sauce. This means you know your business better than anyone, you get to make the decisions as to how you feel your subscribers are best identified and how your business model best operates and should be defined.

    And at the core of just about everything I’ve been saying for the last few months applies to day’s talk, too: thinking and acting like a real, feeling human being will take you further than any strategy or tactic du jour, so if you are questioning your tagging and segmentation, ask yourself “what do I want to see in my inbox, what do I NOT want to see, and what makes ME feel most seen?”

    Everyone wants to be seen, and your people want to feel seen by you. That’s why they gave you their email address. The least you can do is meet them where they are and your tags and segments should be tools that you use to identify where that is.